Love Scotland podcast – Season 8

Transcript

Four speakers: male voiceover [MV]; Jackie Bird [JB]; female singer [FS]; Dauvit Broun [DB]

[MV]
Love Scotland, brought to you from the National Trust for Scotland.

[JB]
Hello. Our subject today is Robert the Bruce, Scotland’s great warrior king who lived and reigned during a turbulent period in Scotland’s history. He’s forever linked to the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, where he and his vastly outnumbered army scored a victory against Edward II.

[FS]
Scots, wha hae wi’ Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led;
Welcome to your gory bed,
Or to victory!

Now’s the day, and now’s the hour;
See the front o’ battle lour;
See approach proud Edward’s power
Chains and slavery!

[JB]
Those stirring words by Robert Burns depict Bruce’s address to his troops at Bannockburn. The site is in the care of the National Trust for Scotland and this year, 2024, is a big year for Bruce as it marks 750 years since his birth.

Although the events at Bannockburn have been well documented, the story of Bruce’s rise to be King of Scots is hindered by a paucity of detailed historical evidence from that period, and by an excess of propaganda from the centuries that followed.
But his life is a fascinating one. He was as calculating and ruthless as he was brave. And as for his allegiances, well, let’s just say he was a man of shifting loyalties. And as for the famous story of his encounter with the spider, well, we’ll come to that.

So, to discuss the life and times of Robert Bruce, I’m joined by Professor Dauvit Broun, Chair of Scottish History at the University of Glasgow and an expert on medieval times. Welcome to the podcast, Dauvit.

[DB]
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

[JB]
Medieval Scotland, Dauvit, is complex and I would say comparatively unknown territory for most of us. So, before we talk about Bruce the man, can I ask you about the Scotland he was born into in 1274?

[DB]
Thank you very much. A lovely place to start because, on the one hand, we can think about this as a period where Scotland is like so many other parts of Europe at this time, where there’s a growing population. It’s largely rural, of course. Most people live in the countryside.

[JB]
Population of about half a million?

[DB]
Yes, well, just when you’re saying about there being a lack of sources, all these things are a bit of a guesstimate. We’ll bag half a million then, shall we? There’s economic expansion because in the recent generations there's more trade. And so, although most people live in the countryside, there are towns – burghs in Scotland, obviously – towns generally in Europe and they’re growing; none of them very big yet, but they’re growing. More people therefore are interconnected, if you like. Even if you are tending your wee farm, you have the opportunity to sell a surplus because there’s more money circulating, and be part of the big trade network that for Scotland is linked partly to England, but also to the Low Countries, the Netherlands, where they have a great demand for wool. Scotland is one of the main wool producers, so even if you’re in the hills and you’ve got lots of sheep, then you’re part of this extended economy. So that’s part of the world that Robert Bruce grew up in.

[JB]
As far as its size goes, is it the Scotland we would know it now?

[DB]
Very similar to today. The main differences being that the Northern Isles are not part of the Kingdom – they’re not until the 1460s – and the Western Isles have only recently formally become part of the Kingdom. That’s the Treaty of Perth with the King of Norway in 1266.

[JB]
Tell me about the Bruce lineage. Going back a few generations, his family was Anglo Norman?

[DB]
That’s right, yes. And this is something that Bruce would have been very conscious of because obviously he’s not just aristocracy but leading nobility. A very important part of defining who they were was their lineage: male to male to male all the way back. That took them all the way back to a place in Normandy called Brix. I can’t say it right but Brix, which is where Bruce comes from. So they must have known that – that’s their name.
But that brings with it connections with a branch of the family based in Yorkshire, so they’ll be very familiar with that. But the Bruce family of course has been in Scotland for generations, arriving around 1120 in Annandale where they were set up with David I.

And from there, they’ve become more and more embedded. And for Robert Bruce himself, the most important part of this is he was born almost certainly in Turnberry, because his mother was the Countess of Carrick – his dad was Earl of Carrick by virtue of marrying his mother. He was part of this area, very much a leading part of this area, which was very naturally and substantially Gaelic at the time, with strong connections with Ireland.

[JB]
Robert Bruce led a privileged life. What languages did he speak?

[DB]
Well, of course we don’t have the opportunity to really get to grips with this, but he almost certainly would have known Gaelic. In fact, there’s no reason to doubt he would have known Gaelic, given that he was almost certainly brought up in Carrick.
Not only that, but he had in his career very strong contacts with the Western Isles and Ireland. So, he seemed to be at home in the Irish Sea area as much as in a more French-speaking, English-centric version of things. He probably – presumably, why not? – would have been able to speak some of what they called then Inglis, which eventually becomes called Scots.

[JB]
Let’s go to 1290. Robert would have been about 14 years old, and Scotland suffered a succession crisis. The last hope, a young girl dubbed the Maid of Norway, had died on her journey to Scotland, and those about to crown the new queen found themselves without a clear replacement. What were their options?

[DB]
All they could think to do was to stare at the family tree, if you like, and go back as far as they could, to anybody who had ancestry from the Royal Lion. They had to go way back to Alexander II’s uncle, Earl David, who died in 1219. And just to make matters worse, he just had daughters. ‘Matters worse’ for the way they thought of these things in those time.
So, it was a perfect storm for the legal eagles to take over because they could find all sorts of reasons – because there were no precedents for this at all – why it could be Robert Bruce, who was descended from one of the daughters.

[JB]
This is Robert Bruce, Robert the Noble – Robert Bruce’s grandfather?

[DB]
Absolutely.

[JB]
After the Maid of Norway died, there was a vacuum in terms of the throne of Scotland. How was that ended?

[DB]
Total panic to start with. The news got through in October 1290 and it took until March the following year for Edward I to give his reply to the Scottish guardians, the government of the time, who had asked him to come to help out as an arbitrator. By the way, in that time his wife had died so I do wonder at the back of my mind if, you know, some important, sensible advice was lost and he made the appallingly fateful decision to say: actually, I’m not going to come as an arbitrator but as a judge.

And it’s part of those really extraordinary twists and turns as the Scottish governors are trying to not acknowledge this; to say no, no, no, no. Of course you’re not the … I mean, it was a pretty outrageous suggestion from their point of view that Edward should be their overlord. And Edward was equally insistent. The twists and turns include Edward trying to drum up as many potential claimants. We end up with 13 at the end of the day, although everybody knows it’s just Bruce or Balliol. Bruce, the future king’s grandfather or John Balliol.

[JB]
And it was, of course, John Balliol. It was a win–win for Edward. He had his man on the throne and he’d strengthened his position over Scotland.

[DB]
And he really pushed that forward, to make it absolutely clear what this meant. Because for the first time ever, you had appeals from the Scottish Parliament being heard in the English Parliament with Edward I. That was unprecedented, but totally logical if Edward I is now the sovereign.

[JB]
John Balliol proves to be a bit weak as a king and ineffective. The Bruce family are clearly not entirely happy with this choice. Let’s talk about young Robert. What sort of upbringing would he have had as this privileged son of a leading family?

[DB]
Exactly. He would have obviously trained in all the soldiering and feats of arms and so on. He would have grown up expecting to lead not just as Lord of Annandale, which is the ancestral lordship, but also as Earl of Carrick. He would have grown up expecting to be one of the most important nobles.

[JB]
And he would’ve spent some time in Edward’s court and with other leading families … almost like a finishing school, if you like.

[DB]
Yes, yes. I mean, I’d hesitate to describe it as a finishing school, but another way to see it is to just imagine the aristocratic circles because everybody’s related to everybody else, one way or another. Just to broaden it slightly, if you look at the leading families in Scotland at the time, they’ve either all got lands in England or they’ve got family in England. We have had a period of 80-odd years of peace – not entirely trouble-free, but peace.

[JB]
Let’s leap to 1296, the last years of John Balliol’s ineffective monarchy. Edward I decided to invade and decided also to annex Scotland into England. Now, at that point, Robert Bruce was 22 years old. He joined Edward’s side. Why?

[DB]
Well, now there’s a very big question. Just to take a step back, we have to remember that Robert Bruce, the future king, is not head of the family yet; his dad is there as Lord of Annandale. Our Robert Bruce, the future king, is Earl of Carrick, and Dad Robert Bruce lives on until April 1304. So, everything that Robert Bruce is doing, you’ve got to bear in mind it’s in that context. And so that’s one part of it.

But the other part, as you’ve pointed out, is that the Bruces were not comfortable or happy with the Balliol kingship, the Balliol government. They never acknowledged that Balliol should be king. They took steps to avoid acknowledging that he should be king. Putting all this together, it’s less surprising – it seems shocking, but it’s less surprising that Robert Bruce, the future king, should be in Edward I’s army, even when they’re committing their atrocity of sacking Berwick, which is the first big event in the war.

[JB]
Well, let’s take a break just there. The Sack of Berwick was a significant moment for Edward and for young Bruce. We’ll be back in a moment.

[MV]
Are you a whisky lover or a nature lover? A fan of Burns or a good ghost story? No matter what you love about Scotland, there’s an episode of Love Scotland just for you. Take a look through our archives to hear the in-depth stories behind Scotland’s history, people and places.
Don’t forget to review, like and share.

[JB]
Welcome back. Just before the break, we reached 1296 and something called the Sack of Berwick. Professor Dauvit Broun, tell me about that.

[DB]
When Edward I decided to invade Scotland, which he did because John Balliol, as king and the nobility, refused to join Edward I’s army fighting the King of France – and had actually, unbeknown to Edward at this point, formed an alliance with the King of France. Edward I, perfectly within his rights as these were understood at the time, led an army to punish his rebellious nobles and was met with resistance, as you might expect. Berwick is not just part of the Kingdom of Scotland at this time, but it is the most wealthy burgh in Scotland. It is the centre of the wool trade with the Netherlands and indeed you have many Flemings who are merchants there.

Now the story goes that the people of Berwick had rather too much confidence in their defences. When they saw Edward’s army arrayed before them, they showed parts of their anatomy to the King of England, which wasn’t very tactful, shall we say. That might be, goodness knows, part of it. But whatever it was, Edward I was enraged by their defiance. And this was not unheard of; it wasn’t a totally disgraceful and an appalling thing to do in the laws of war at the time. If a place isn’t going to surrender, then give it a chance; if it doesn’t do it, sack it. This went on for three days and was a complete, I’m afraid, a total devastating massacre.

[JB]
And young Robert Bruce, who was on Edward’s side remember, does not come out of this well. In fact, a poet at the time wrote ‘the treachery of a certain man who will be decried forever, whose banner deceived the citizens of Berwick, let the name of this Earl be concealed, less damage be renewed.’ Was this a reference to Bruce?

[DB]
Yes. If you join the dots, there aren’t too many other candidates, shall we say, whose banner it is apart from Robert Bruce, the future king at this stage, Earl of Carrick. Those words were probably written between 1304 and 1306 at a point where, if you were hoping for renewing Scottish independence, your best chance was Robert Bruce. So, it’s possible to see why people might be careful about naming him in that context …

[JB]
Yes, if they wanted to see the next day or the day after tomorrow. This was also around the time that Edward took ownership of the Stone of Destiny.

[DB]
Yes, well, exactly. So, the sack of Berwick. And then there was a battle in Dunbar a few weeks later, where the Scottish army were swept away. Let’s remember again, there had been 80 years of peace, so they weren’t used to doing much serious business, whereas the King of England’s army was. The conquest was therefore pretty straightforward and very impressive: stately march, you might say, through Scotland all the way up to Elgin, Edward I got. And on his way back, he passed through Scone and collected the Stone of Destiny.

In Edward I’s eyes, what he had done was he had treated Scotland like it was a fief. That is to say, land that was given to his vassal, the King of Scots John Balliol, who had defied him, and therefore had been deprived of his land. Unprecedented at the time that this should actually be another kingdom, which did create difficulties for Edward I. But in his mind, that’s what had happened, and therefore it had ceased to be a kingdom. It just made sense to make sure the point was not lost by removing the Stone of Destiny on which Scottish kings were inaugurated, and also the bit of the True Cross, the Holy Rood, which was the most sacred royal relic.

[JB]
And at this time, as I said, Robert the Bruce, our Robert, was backing Edward. He did so for a few months, but then he flipped. Why?

[DB]
Now this is where I think we begin to see Robert Bruce become less conventional and a bit more adventurous and imaginative.

[JB]
Do we know anything of his character?

[DB]
His character? Oh goodness. I mean, we can keep tracking this if you like as we go through the years. Really, all we’ve got is his deeds. And as you said at the beginning, there’s a lot of propaganda about that, but peeling that away, what he actually did at the time and there’s also, of course, some things were written in his name. When you put all that together, you do see somebody that was prepared gradually, as events unfolded, to be more adventurous, break convention, and be the ruthlessly pragmatic person in order to achieve his goals.

[JB]
So politically ambivalent. Hugely ambitious.

[DB]
Hugely ambitious but – and this is an important point to always bear in mind in this period – of course for us we’re used to the idea of our political leaders keeping their personal lives and interests separate from the interests of the country. That was inconceivable in those days because after all, if you were the king or you thought you should be the king, then the fate of the kingdom and your fate and your family were intertwined, completely inseparable. That also went for if you were a noble family. The interests of your family against other nobles and the lands and all the people that depended on you – these were inextricably linked to your personal interests.

So what is unusual about Robert Bruce in 1297, as you say, when he’s no longer in Edward I’s peace and starts to rebel, is that he is striking an independent note from his father, who remember is the head of the family and is in England and is having a relatively quiet time. An independent note in order to maintain the profile of his family in the kingdom. It’s almost like he’s thinking through – Balliol is gone but Bruce sees himself as the rightful king. How is he going to maintain this profile of being the rightful king? He’s not going to do it like his dad is doing by sitting in his estates, doing fishing and shooting and all the things that aristocrats do. He’s going to be active in the politics of the country – and that’s what you find him doing in 1297.

[JB]
Which is fine, and which I can follow until I get to 1302 and discover that Robert Bruce changes sides again and goes back to join the English. The question again to you, Dauvit, is why?

[DB]
Exactly. After William Wallace, obviously as guardian, loses the Battle of Falkirk in 1298, at that point intriguingly the leadership then devolves to Robert Bruce and John Comyn, who he slays later on.

[JB]
Ah, spoiler alert! OK, let’s just talk about 1302 first of all. He goes back to the English. Can you tell us because we are going to be here for a long time?

[DB]
Oh, sorry! Yes, yes. Well, he’s been prominent in the government; however, John Balliol, he’s not out of the picture completely and in 1301 he takes a sufficiently personal interest in what’s going on to appoint his own person to govern what has been freed from Edward I’s clutches as sole guardian.

And this is all with a view to John Balliol actually coming back. In early 1302, which is when Robert Bruce defects, that is the point where this is top of the agenda. And why Bruce defects isn’t just negative reasons because he really doesn’t want to be part of this supporting Balliol. But it’s also a positive strategic move because this enables him to marry the daughter of the Earl of Ulster, who is in the loyalty of Edward I.

[JB]
So, he hops from side to side, depending on which side he thinks at that particular time gives him the best chance of eventually reaching the top in Scotland and claiming the throne.

[DB]
Exactly.

[JB]
You mentioned William Wallace there. Can we talk briefly about the interaction or not between Robert Bruce and William Wallace? Famously, for those of us of a certain age, the movie Braveheart had the meeting. This did not happen.

[DB]
No reason to imagine that … well, it definitely didn’t happen the way it’s portrayed – and whether they ever met is another matter. The whole idea of the meeting is a medieval fiction; it’s not a modern fiction. You get it in Blind Harry’s Wallace, written in the 1470s. Actually, it’s probably earlier than that, this idea that during the Battle of Falkirk, Wallace protests to prove he should be king and so on. So it’s not completely made up by Braveheart by any means. However, it belongs to literature rather than bald history, if you like.

[JB]
But there is a suggestion that Bruce may have taken part in the hunting down of William Wallace. Is there any factual basis for that? Because at that point he was on the side of the English and it’s difficult to keep track of which side that Bruce is on.

[DB]
Yes, yes, yes. I’ll just demur a bit about how difficult it is to keep track because there is this consistency of purpose. So as long as you know the context, then actually his decisions are quite rational.

But the fascinating thing about the terrible fate of Wallace is the government. There’s still been a government in the name of John Balliol until 9 February 1304. And everybody then submits to Edward I and it takes from then, February 1304, to the beginning of August 1305 for Wallace to finally be turned in. That is despite Edward I doing everything he possibly could to bully people into … I mean, he basically says to many of the leading people, I’ll have you back into your lands and take you back into my allegiance if you show me that you’re really doing your best to get hold of Wallace. I can’t recall Bruce being given that sort of instruction, but he would have the same pressure as anybody else. Nevertheless, Wallace is not handed in for well over a year. I mean, let me do the maths. We’re talking about a year and a half, aren’t we? So that is really quite impressive. I mean, we don’t know where he was, so goodness knows.

When he’s eventually turned in, of course it is an inevitable act of betrayal. But not by Bruce.

[JB]
Well, we’re reaching the end of the episode and Bruce isn’t even king yet. We’ll deal with that in next week’s podcast. But before we go, a final word on Bruce at this stage of his life, Dauvit. It’s 1305, the year before he becomes king. He’s 31 years old. If we were to go out for a walk and saw him across the street and I ask you, who was that? How would you describe him at this point?

[DB]
Well, yes, I’d say steely determination but also a real leader of people. And for all the, as I say, changing sides according to the immediate situation, but there is a clear-sightedness about his ultimate goal. So hugely ambitious; it’s like he’s got a very consistently clear idea: I should be king and king of an independent kingdom as well. He’s not going to be king of something which is just a bit of a rump and as vassal of the king of England.

[JB]
Professor Dauvit Broun, thank you very much.

[DB]
Thank you.

[JB]
And that’s where we will have to leave this edition of Love Scotland on the fascinating story of Robert the Bruce. We have yet even to approach a certain battle called Bannockburn, which of course is in the care of the National Trust for Scotland.

Your role in the future of Scotland’s heritage is absolutely vital and if you would like to donate then please go to nts.org.uk/donate

I hope you’ll join us next time for Robert Bruce the sequel. Until then, goodbye.

[JB]
Coming up in Part 2.

[DB]
Robert Bruce has basically thrown the dice in the hope that the middling sorts, if you want to say the common people, of Scotland will back him because he’s the only hope for independence.

[MV]
Love Scotland is brought to you by Think and Demus Productions on behalf of the National Trust for Scotland. Presented by Jackie Bird.

For show notes and more information, go to nts.org.uk and don’t forget to like, subscribe, review and share.